I'm gonna start by saying that my statement about lack of examples of men to point to was wrong, there are good examples though I still do note that men have to really scratch and dig to both find them and discern them from false teachers.

It's good of you to admit that your assertion was wrong. I agree with you that it is difficult to find good advice these days. However, I note that this is the nature of truth. It is supposed to be hard to find and the process of searching it out tends to be highly unpleasant – which is why most people don't bother.

I don't disagree with what you say, living righteously is good, lifting is good, etc. But the advice observably doesn't land with those who need it the most and the Group 3 dogs explain why in a way that fits the real life results the best. In short being right doesn't solve the problem, solving the problem is going to solve the problem.

Again, I agree with you. As other commenters have pointed out, and as I have said as well, the problem is that the institutions that should have done the job of making men out of boys, have failed spectacularly to do this.

The most important of these institutions is the family, which is under extreme assault from all sides. That is the first place for boys to become civilised young men, but it isn't happening anymore.

The one point that you miss in your analysis is that the dogs who simply lie down and accept their fate are the ones who know clearly that they have no hope of escape. The dogs who are shown just once that they can escape, will continue to try to find ways to do so.

The men of the modern world are not like those dogs who have NO hope of escape. There is always hope – but a man has to find that within himself first.

Only then will he be able to look for truth.

This blog is not capable of pushing men without hope into having it. Nothing and no one on this Earth can do that. Men have to find that within themselves.

Once that hope is found, it is assaulted from all sides – which is where blogs like mine come in.

My purpose is to give men hope that there is something better out there, and to show them the way to get to it. The same is true of any number of Manosphere and Hard Right blogs, channels, podcasts, and media personalities out there.

The article also notes that having the mere option of escape can blunt the worst of learned helplessness – legalized prostitution? Or at-fault marriage where the man can easily move on after a failed marriage would be enough.

Indeed. I support legalised prostitution – I think it's a terrible idea to use prostitutes, but the alternative of a completely sexless and joyless life without female companionship of any kind strikes me as far, FAR worse for society as a whole. And it is clear that with sexbots rapidly becoming widely available and more realistic every single day, we are staring right down the barrel of an explosive shift in the balance of power in the Sexual Market Place.

The suffering and misery that millions of men have been through for the past fifty years is still going to be there. But there are already numerous alternatives out there, and more are coming.

["If helplessness can be "learned", then it can also be "unlearned". ]

This is the key point I would like to address. I'm gonna start by saying that my statement about lack of examples of men to point to was wrong, there are good examples though I still do note that men have to really scratch and dig to both find them and discern them from false teachers. Rollo, Roosh, Didact, etc have had good discovery.

I read up on 'learned helplessness', as the test results defined it, and assert that the solution is going to have to be very different than my own 'pointing at good examples' or your 'lift, wealth, travel'. I remembered the term for the right reason but I interpreted it wrong. God can solve it but that goes without argument.

[source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness]
The summary is that:
-dogs will escape an electrified floor, obviously
-dogs who cannot escape lay down and whine. The laying down and whining matches most MGTOW haters description of them which is a big sign of what's happening to men here.
-dogs who learned helplessness, when placed in a box they COULD escape, did not try. This is huge. Something switched off in their brains and escape became invisible to them. In theology terms I would call these the chains of spiritual bondage.

From the article: [" In Seligman's hypothesis, the dogs do not try to escape because they expect that nothing they do will stop the shock. To change this expectation, experimenters physically picked up the dogs and moved their legs, replicating the actions the dogs would need to take in order to escape from the electrified grid. This had to be done at least twice before the dogs would start willfully jumping over the barrier on their own. In contrast, threats, rewards, and observed demonstrations had no effect on the "helpless" Group 3 dogs"]

Note that threats and rewards (telling men to man up for reason X) and observed demonstrations (good example) did not work. No matter how much you say they will gain the promise of reward will just bounce off. Mocking and bullying will similarly have little effect. They had to be physically puppeted to start opening up their minds. In the case of men like you and I this means they need someone to somehow force an expectation change or God to shine a miracle on them, probably two miracles going by the dog results.

I suppose that's the reason your words frustrate me so much. I don't disagree with what you say, living righteously is good, lifting is good, etc. But the advice observably doesn't land with those who need it the most and the Group 3 dogs explain why in a way that fits the real life results the best. In short being right doesn't solve the problem, solving the problem is going to solve the problem. Spiritual bondage is a bitch.

PS: I have no idea what puppetting a dog's legs to mimic escape into actual escape would look like for a human. Perhaps this was the role of the father in the old days who could push his son along while he had authority over him, as well as old systems like Prom night or Sadie Hawkins which made the stakes so low that it might as well be puppetting your children into 'success'. The article also notes that having the mere option of escape can blunt the worst of learned helplessness – legalized prostitution? Or at-fault marriage where the man can easily move on after a failed marriage would be enough.

You're not the only one.

Someone who knows me asked me a while back if I were some kind of MGTOW, to which I replied that there would be no such need to follow that path.

I'm already Buddhist, the Dharma takes me wherever I need to go.

But I remember meeting in California many years ago an abbot of a Japanese monastery who seemed to be doing the Bodhidharma walk-about thing not only because the Dharma was taking him wherever he needed to go, but also because his monastery was in dire need of a new abbot.

And there he was in California, hoping that perhaps one of those students sitting zazen-like and humming like a demented fly was going to answer the call.

Why not me? I already had students, and after a short discussion, he admitted that my students were far worse than any of his.

Not a single student dared to say the obvious: "But all students are horrible!"

Because if one of those students had dared to do that, we could have settled the abbot's problem right then and there.

I've been to the monastery since, it's in a beautiful part of Western Japan, but the abbot's long gone. He eventually found someone before he died, but I could sense that the monastery is slowly sliding into that pattern of being a secular tourist destination rather than a religious one.

This is like Western secular tourists visiting churches for the architecture and the stained glass windows.

They go to Paul Virilio's old "bunker church" in Nevers to complain about the brutal architecture and the inclined surfaces that make the penitent work for their prayers, rather than understanding that these features are a required part of the experience.

The locals never seemed to like the place: it reminds them too much of their obligations to do spiritual work as well as their obligations to the past.

Dave, in the video presented, doesn't look obese. Your advice to put down the twinkie would not have helped his situation. I agree that looking hot helps manage attraction with your wife but I dispute that it's some sort of panacea for wife obesity problems.

My point was not about Dave specifically. It was about men in marriage in general.

The heart of MGTOW's issue is that there's no longer a template for success. My thesis is 'Learned Helplessness'.

If helplessness can be "learned", then it can also be "unlearned". The templates for success exist all over the internet. As our friend Dire Badger points out above, there are plenty of places to go looking – but a man has to have the will and the courage to go looking.

Far from being inconsistent or nonexistent, the templates preached by men like Dalrock, His Voxness, Rollo, Roosh, and yes, yours truly, are highly consistent.

Lift heavy shit. Build and preserve wealth. Travel and gain experience IN the world, but do not be OF the world. Love God with all your heart, and trust in the Lord to give you wisdom and strength. Do not pursue women for the sake of sex, but rather for marriage and children. Stand firm against evil and do not yield in the face of aggression.

In other words – be the best man that you can be.

This is what the churches USED to teach, as did society at large. The fact that our most valued institutions no longer do so, is not really cause for despair. It simply means that we have to build our own institutions from scratch.

They don't know what those steps are in part because no one can point at a guy and say , "do that".

Oh really? I can point to at least five men and say, "DO THAT" – and four of them read this blog. One of them left a lengthy comment upstairs.

MGTOW defies God's commandments

This is correct. Christians are commanded to stand firm in the face of evil. MGTOW preaches that one should abandon the field of battle completely and cede it to evil – which is the same as siding with evil in the end. Not only is MGTOW a strategy of surrender – it is ultimately a philosophy of unwitting agreement with evil.

I would say for many non religious men MGTOW is probably a better option

This is not correct. To go MGTOW means to deny oneself the ability to build the very foundations that make one better as a man. To become a MGTOW these days does not mean self-improvement, the way it used to; nowadays, MGTOWs are overwhelmingly obsessed with sperging on internet forums about how awful women are, how doomed we all are, and how stupid people (like me) are for saying that we can and should fight.

The future belongs to those who show up for it. MGTOWs cannot and will not do so, which means that they have no future.

Go live your own life for yourself and not throw yourself onto a fire to save a society that must collapse or go to war with itself to be restored, if it can be restored at all.

Who said anything about throwing oneself onto a fire? Since when is it self-destructive to try to build a family, a business, a community? Since when is it self-sacrificing to invest in oneself physically, morally, and especially spiritually?

In the West at least want to marry young (25 an under) kind, feminine and loyal women and they simply aren't available.

If you spend your time in the big cities, like New York – i.e. Gomorrah on the Hudson – I agree. I would know. I spent over a decade in such environments in the USA, and it was MISERABLE. But what exactly stops a man from moving to find better prospects elsewhere?

Well men can also say no and so they should refuse a bad deal.

MGTOW isn't about refusing a bad deal. MGTOW is about completely refusing to deal in the first place.

Bad deals are those in which the downside risks are so great that the upsides aren't worth the price. But every deal requires some kind of risk. Good deals involve risk mitigation and reduction.

MGTOW isn't about risk mitigation. MGTOW is about abandoning risk altogether. You cannot profit without taking some risks – that is a bedrock rule of money, sex, marriage, and life.

At current rates the US will be Amish, Evangelical , LDS and Devout Catholic in its entirety in a couple of centuries,

Probably earlier than that, if the trends hold steady. Like I said – the future belongs to those who show up for it. MGTOWs have damned themselves to irrelevance over time – so why should men sign up to be irrelevant?

I'm not religious to speak of. but its obvious that if you are Christian you are commanded to be fruitful and multiply or serve in a monastic /celibate way , one or the other so go do that. MGTOW defies God's commandments

I would say for many non religious men MGTOW is probably a better option.

Go live your own life for yourself and not throw yourself onto a fire to save a society that must collapse or go to war with itself to be restored, if it can be restored at all.

Now this just isn't a White problem, China for example has the lowest fertility it has had since it as founded and that is despite more pro natal policies. Both nations and several others are probably at record lows.

In the West at least want to marry young (25 an under) kind, feminine and loyal women and they simply aren't available.

Far too many women have made their choice on that matter and that is no.

Well men can also say no and so they should refuse a bad deal.

Long term this will all correct itself anyway. At current rates the US will be Amish, Evangelical , LDS and Devout Catholic in its entirety in a couple of centuries,

This will end the mouse utopia and mankind will go back to the lives they evolved for.

Yeah, we basically need a true church again. One that teaches the real rules. How to recognize a worthwhile woman. How to attract and keep her. How to follow Jesus and fight back against the world's evil.

I loved "The Heretics of Saint Possenti" but it was a pipe dream… The RCC is far too cucked to allow it to happen, and even if they did the true men of faith seem to be few and far between… and those men of faith often have absolutely zero understanding of what is going on in the real world outside of the church's walls.

The problem with such a church lies in the basic rule of convergence. "Those institutions that are not expressly anti-liberal will eventually become liberal.". The existing institutions were created during a time when the world was hard, and fighting back against that hardness was their greatest job… they were unprepared when the world took a turn in the opposite direction towards extreme Liberalism, and in their quest to maintain their status quo they have to keep moving farther left than the prevailing culture.

The churches were literally corrupted by their own impulse towards charity, understanding, and sympathy, and I have yet to see a single church that actually follows the word of Jesus that has NOT moved it's goalposts to try and corner the market on 'niceness'.

The steps are all over the place. Dalrock, Vox Popoli, the archived spearhead, even occasionally right here. The rules are readily available IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO LOOK… but most men, reared in this apallingly liberal environment, have no clue where to start cutting their way through the layers of bullshit.

They have no starting place, and even if they find something, if they are not geniuses, how can they apply those rules to their own life and reality? It's not always so clear, especially for those who have trouble grasping the often arrogant verbal gymnastics of those who have figured some of them.

THAT is where a true man of God can come into play. He can be the interpreter, helping 'average joe' puzzle through the mountain of Oral Diarrhea that even the most down-to-earth tends to spew in order to maintain their sense of self-worth. They have the Unique viewpoint of being IN the world but not OF the world, and are close enough that they can literally just tell a dude, "Okay, she cheated on you? She's going to divorce you. From this moment on you have to think of her as your worst enemy. STOP thinking of her as your best friend and trusted companion, She HATES you and will destroy you. Here's how to prepare your case and yourself to fight back… She has ruined your family, but let's get ready to protect your next one…"

That is the classic priesthood leader's job… to help protect their flock from spiritual destruction, and NOTHING is more spiritually destructive than a selfish and vindictive bitch that betrays you and steals your life and family out from under you.

We need a new church, and I sincerely hope that Christ or John pops down here to find and baptise the right person to start it.

Thanks for the reply. I suppose I should have factored in the eternal gammatude, as this is in fact the internet, aka the place where posturing is easiest.

The heart of MGTOW's issue is that there's no longer a template for success. My thesis is 'Learned Helplessness'. There are no solid, consistent (emphasis here), examples of what a man can do to attain societal and personal fulfillment. If men were told that they had to slay a dragon with a sword and would, 100%, get a nice wife fortune and kids men would strive towards it and not complain too much about it even with a 99% kill rate. MGTOW wasn't around when it was 'work 100 hours a week at the company', 'journey to the new world' or 'conquer those lands before you'. Even if it's hard as long as men absolutely knew the goal in front of them and you would see MGTOW as a movement evaporate.

Today it's all inconsistent:
Follow the disney/facebook standards of male behavior? Live like a sexless cuck (fail)
Join a megachurch? Get divorced and shamed for trying to be a man by churchian false teachers (fail)
Be incredibly famous? Many stories of celebrities on their Xth marriage (fail)
Be incredibly rich? Bezo's ex wife just became the richest woman in the world, his wealth couldn't stop the divorce and he could afford the most expensive lawyers in human history (fail)
Be incredibly good looking? Men are 'told' it doesn't work and it also demonstrably doesn't teach the game you need to maintain a marriage, many hottie soldier boys come home cucked (fail)

And the worst part is that sometimes it does work. The problem that leads to the learned helplessness is that there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to it. You'll see a complete soy boy with a hottie one day and see Chad Thundercock blow his brains out because he lost everything the next. And what happens when Learned Helplessness sets in is inaction, it's a complete mechanistic reaction to randomness. That's why men check out.

Here the moneyshot: "But they don't actually want to do anything about it, or take any steps toward fixing the problem." They don't know what those steps are in part because no one can point at a guy and say , "do that". Incidentally men who have been extra-traumatized into a deeper learned helplessness won't even look for answers anymore.

All correct and valid points. Everything you pointed out relates to what the God-Emperor called "taking care of the downside".

One of Aaron Clarey's seminal posts relates to how we can go back to the 1950s whenever we want, if only we have the will to do what is necessary. MGTOW types complain endlessly about how awful the modren world is – and it is, for sure. But they don't actually want to do anything about it, or take any steps toward fixing the problem.